7: Rethinking Zero Waste and Building Community Care (with April Dickinson)

When we talk about sustainability, we often focus on what we’re buying—or not buying. But what if it’s really about something much deeper?

In this episode, I’m joined by April Dickinson (@zerowastedork), a thoughtful voice in the zero waste space who thoughtfully challenges the consumer-driven model of sustainability. We talk about the evolution of zero waste living, the role of community care in climate action, and why economic degrowth might be the shift we need. From local connections to global systems, this is a conversation about finding joy, contributing to community, and staying grounded in what really matters.

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed or stuck trying to "get it right" in your sustainability journey, this episode offers a generous, honest alternative.

Takeaways

• Why zero waste is about more than personal consumption.
• The problem of perfectionism and shame in sustainability spaces.
• Shifting from individual action to collective community care.
• The importance of local networks: community fridges, Buy Nothing groups, and mutual aid.
• Understanding who benefits and who is burdened by our systems.
• The concept of degrowth and why infinite growth isn’t sustainable.

Resources

Braiding Sweetgrass – Robin Wall Kimmerer

Doughnut Economics - Kate Raworth

Viet Thanh Nguyen (learn more about Expansive Solidarity)

Connect with April

Instagram

Storygraph

Chapters

• 5:31 The Evolution of Zero Waste Living
• 11:37 Sustainability at the Speed of Capitalism
• 16:42 Community Care and Economic Degrowth
• 20:41 The Importance of Local Connections
• 28:36 Who Benefits and Who is Burdened?
• 35:35 Love, Contribution, and Sustainable Choices
• 36:26 One Small Shift: Connection, Reciprocity, and Local Care

Transcript

0:00

We need to rethink what success and growth look like in the sustainability space, because as my guest today says, sustainability at the speed of capitalism is not sustainable. Welcome to Sustainable in the Suburbs, a podcast for the eco-curious who want to live a greener life and are looking for a place to start. I'm your host, Sarah Robertson-Barnes, a soccer mom with a station wagon and a passion for sustainable living. Each week I'll bring you practical tips and honest conversations to help you waste less, save money and make small doable shifts that actually fit your real life. Because sustainable living doesn't have to be perfect to matter and you don't have to do it all to make a difference. Hi friends and welcome back to Sustainable in the Suburbs. The podcast where we start where we are, use what we have and live a little greener, one small shift at a time. Today's guest is someone I've been connected with since my very first post on Instagram during Classic Free July back in 2017. the lovely, thoughtful and quietly radical April Dickinson. You might know her as at zero waste dork on Instagram. She's a longtime voice in the zero waste space who brings a deeply intersectional and community focused lens to sustainable living. Today we're talking about how sustainability at the speed of capitalism just doesn't work. What economic degrowth means and could look like, how community care can show up in everyday life and how we can all show up imperfectly, but intentionally in our homes and neighborhoods. This will be such a rich and grounding conversation. So let's get into it. April, I'm so glad to finally have you here. It feels like a really full circle moment after all of these years of following each other online. for the folks who might not know, you're actually one of the very first people that I followed and same back. can kind of go through, I think you're like number three or something like that. So you're my OG zero waste buddy. is amazing. Folks who don't know you yet or don't follow April at Zero Waste Org, which you should, can you tell us a bit about yourself and the work you've been doing? Yeah, so I'm April. I live in Eastern Washington with my family. I'm the mom of two kids who are in middle school and elementary school. And my partner and I moved out here about five years ago and I started kind of thinking about zero waste living and all of that probably around 2016. like, I was like looking at the captions or like the little dates on my old posts. it was the first thing I remember was getting a lot of, or like a little selection of fabric from my buy nothing group to wrap presents in December of 2016. And at that time I wasn't really thinking about zero waste, but I thought the fabric was really beautiful and wanted to incorporate it into our gift giving for that year. um But anyway, like ever since I moved out here to Spokane, I've found a really strong community of people who care a lot about reducing waste, who care about the environment. And it's been really, really nice to have that kind of feeling of community around me. I don't always do all of the community events, but I'd love to like to work with the ah folks that are doing that or going to the businesses that support a lot of like waste reduction practices. um I feel like I want to do a bunch of shout outs, but I think I can maybe save that for later. But we have things like Spokane Zero Waste. have em a art upcycling business. anyway, it just felt good to move from like a larger city that already has a lot of resources to a smaller city, but not losing that. em Because I was a little bit afraid of like not having access to those kinds of services in a smaller city. But em Yeah, and as far as like what I do um right now, I am just a mom, which I really love, but I'm also a part-time campaign manager. And being a part of a political campaign that also um really prioritizes sustainability has been really fun. We are upcycling a lot of materials for our campaign swag. We recently did a bunch of t-shirts that were from a thrift store that were blanks and printed on them locally. So um it's fun to see how all of these little aspects of being zero waste get fit into the different parts of my life. And that's been really fun and exciting to explore. That's so cool that that's already the vibe in the area that you live in rather than trying to find people that have that same ethos as you, that there's already a community that you can slide into and contribute to. I love that. So you mentioned that you started back sort of in 2016 with the fabric for wrapping. I'm old enough to remember you wrapping a Christmas gift in a pair of pants. That's burned into my brain forever. It's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. uh And I just love that it's a use what you have moment. So I just had to give that a shout out. But, and so how does, how has your approach to quote zero waste evolved over the years? I think there was a point in time where I was really focused on the zero part of zero waste. And I think a lot of us fell into this trap because some of the early influencers were, you know, family of four living in the suburbs, fitting all of their household trash into one tiny jar. Like what the... Okay, what's your take on swearing on this podcast because... Yeah. Yeah. I'm a swear person. So yeah, do it. was just like, okay, I guess that's what I need to achieve for my family. Right. And, um, so I kind of like tried to do everything all at once. And, um, that was really hard. And I, at some point around 2017, 2018, I don't exactly remember when I just decided like, you know what? Fuck that. Like I, that's not going to work for my family. I am going to just focus on making the changes that work for us and that my family is going to get behind with me so that it doesn't feel so like such an uphill battle. And I started this hashtag called zero waste IRL. Like what does zero waste look like in real life for most, you know, regular, regular people like me. And that helped me. find more joy in the movement rather than thinking about it as a sacrifice or having to change my lifestyle so much. I felt that I was able to make changes that, that actually were like joyful and worked really well for our family. So, um, and so that was, you know, like seven years or so ago now. And now, you know, after the pandemic, um, and having to get a lot of You know, a lot of stores change their policies on whether you could bring in reusable containers. A lot of things were being delivered in plastic and you had no real choice on the wrapping. like the next evolution for me was really thinking about zero waste as a systems change philosophy. And to think about how do we get back to more natural rhythms and you know, the, natural. The natural world that we live in and are a part of is a zero waste system. Everything returns back to the earth and is cycled through in some way, is repurposed in some way. uh So how do we structure our lives or shift our lives in such a way to get more in touch with those natural rhythms? And that's been almost a more spiritual and emotional quest. which I would invite people to tap into because I think that having a slightly deeper connection to the movement and a deeper connection to why we even care, why we even want to do it, I think helps continue to motivate us because like I'm gonna eat a bag of chips. I fucking love chips. Like I'm not gonna feel bad about that shit anymore. Like um my nutritionist. I feel bad and guilty to my nutritionist, but not to the zero waste movement because it's much bigger than that. um And that's something that I've noticed for myself is kind of going from worrying about not ever creating any little bit of trash to really thinking a lot bigger picture and about how I, as um a living being amongst other non-human living beings, how do we kind of get back into equilibrium with each other and live in harmony with each other? And that's so much. uh different approach that I've really been enjoying tapping into lately. Yes. When you first started talking about zero waste in real life, I had really come to a place where I was so fed up with the trash jar. Yeah. Like it's garbage. It's literally garbage. And I had just come to a place where I was really doing the work out of uh a place of like perfectionism and anxiety and guilt. And that is not effective. Shame is not a learning tool. And I felt like it was just so off putting and elitist and was not reflective of like anyone's real life to the point where I was like, I don't want to have anything in my picture on Instagram that could even be construed as me not doing it. And then I was like, what am I, what am I doing? This is insane. This isn't real life. It's not real life and it's not how people live. And nothing is going to change if I am so hyper focused on my own like, individual trash. I very much believe in individual action, but what's in my garbage can is not it. So. I remember being like, I have to worry about every single fingernail, every single, every single hair that falls from my head, compost that shit. Like that goes into compost, every little scrap of anything. it was, and you're right. It was anxiety, anxiety inducing and kind of fear-based in a way. And I just a hundred percent agree with you. It's. It doesn't really help you feel good as you're doing it. And we're, only on this planet for so long. Like I don't want to like toxic positivity my way out of it, but we also want to feel good about what we're doing and feel like we're making a good impact. And sometimes when you get so caught up in those little details, it can take that experience away. That's experience of like, just that you, that you, that you've got it, you know, and that you're doing the right thing. Yeah. And a lot of this work is really just choosing the best worst option that's available to you. With your circumstances and your budget and your access and all of that kind of stuff. So I've been thinking about a recent-ish post of yours lately with the phrase sustainability at the speed of capitalism is not sustainable. And it's really distilled down a lot of things that I've been thinking about lately. So can you tell us about that? Yeah, I was just getting really frustrated by all, you know, I'm like, I've kind of disengaged with Instagram posting a little bit because my feed was so filled with sponsored posts. know, buy this product because it's sustainable, you know, do this thing because it's sustainable. And I was like, why did you create a new product? And why are you asking me to buy more stuff? Like, I'm pretty content with what I have and I really don't appreciate being marketed to constantly, especially for sustainable items. And what I often think about too is em even if the item could be composted at home, for instance, that's kind of considered oh a very high standard for a sustainable product. What about all of the materials that went into making it and the resource extraction required to make that sustainable item? uh And I think the experience for me that prompted me finally kind of trying to put all of that into a post that was just very short and like kind of to the point was I had a conversation with someone who is a very prominent sustainability consultant in our area. And I was talking about or the conversation around taking down some of the dams. in the rivers to improve the salmon habitat. And for me, when I think about, again, my journey in zero waste, restoring natural habitat is actually really important to me. um And it goes back to also like indigenous stewardship of land. um A lot of what's been done has been done in service to capitalism and has really destroyed natural ecosystems. so, you know, in Washington state, there's a lot of conversation about removing dams. And this person said, well, it might seem like a good idea on the surface, but because of those dams, um cargo ships are able to like float down the river. And it's the most eco-friendly way of shipping products from point A to point B. And I was like, I could not give a shit about those cargo ships. What are you talking about? ah And it was just this light bulb moment for me of like, our priorities are very different. I care about restoring the ecosystem. You care about the cargo ship filled with God knows what products. getting down the river in the most sustainable way. And so that was kind of like that breaking point for me of like, this is, that is not sustainable. I don't care what you tell me about statistics of reduction of emissions or whatever. There's nothing you could tell me about that process that would make me think that it's sustainable because it's serving capitalism and it's not serving communities. And it's like a slap in the face in indigenous land stewards who are trying to restore our ecosystems. that is, but that's the perspective of like one of the highest regarded sustainability consultants in our area. And I was very, I was pretty discouraged to be honest, but I felt like it needed to be said. I'm sure more people than me have said it before too. Like, I think people really are starting to get that. um But I was like, pretty set up. And the image in the background is of these like trees blowing in the wind uh at the Arboretum. was on a walk with my parents and I was like, this feels really peaceful and calm. And I think I just, I'm going to pair those two together. My frustration with a very peaceful and calm. The image is definitely the opposite of trying to find the most sustainable way to move a container ship of stuff nobody needs. Like that's a real missing the forest for the trees moment. And I think you've definitely captured that with the background of the photo, whether you were conscious of that or not. So it sounds like, and this is something that, that we sort of talk about is that we really need to rethink what success and growth look like in the sustainability space. especially when ethical brands are also missing the point sometimes. Well, that's one thing that I would like to see more of and I'm starting to see it a little bit more in the mainstream is talking about degrowth. um Quite a while back, I had posted about Donut economics and I just really wish it would take off more in the States. It's much more popular in Europe m and they have smaller. nation states to try to implement these things. So I get that our context here in North America and in the United States is very different. um you know, there are people who understand that infinite growth is not possible. Like it's just not going to happen. um So rather than just riding it until everything collapses, how can we have a system that recognizes that and honors that? And then says, okay, well, how do we have economic stability, which I would, favor economic stability over, you know, infinite growth. How do we have economic stability that allows business and corporations and whatever to survive and to kind of maintain a certain level of profitability while respecting. uh So the image is basically an outer circle and an inner circle. and saying that kind of everything in our economic system should fit between those two circles. The outer circle is the kind of ecological realities that we live in. So the planet can only provide so many natural resources, et cetera. And then the inner circle is human basic needs. And how do we take care of the people who are our neighbors and our friends and who are in our community? And how do we take care of their basic needs and ensure that their quality of life is at a, you know, unfortunately, bare minimum standard. So we're not talking about thriving there, but we are talking about at least a level of survival that their uh dignity is honored and respected. And I had just loved that idea. I mean, number one, donuts are delicious. So their marketing was like brilliant. And then also just this idea of, I think, I'm sure they were thinking about this, but the idea of the economy being in a circle and not a line on a graph that goes on for infinity, um I just think it's brilliant. it really captures more of the head and the heart connection too around we need to recognize our limits and we need to care for each other and having those two be together in an in an economic model is something that I'm really drawn to as well. Yeah, community care is something that I've been thinking about a lot, especially in the last five years or so. And it does seem like we've gotten so far away from that. Just in a real me and mine mentality. And I think that people are really craving connection. And we just, don't know how to... how to do that anymore, it feels like. So like you are so thoughtful about the importance of turning to your community and learning from your neighbors, whether it's like mending or growing food or even just knowing each other. So why do you think that community care is such a big part of the climate lens? How we need to look at this? Because those are the folks that are going to be next to you if anything ever goes wrong. As much as I like, I love that we know each other through this online platform. I would have never met you. And that's amazing to me. Like I love the way that technology connects us to like minded people who are like cool as shit, who are really caring and who are super smart. And I love that. But once the internet goes down. It's Jim Bob down the street who's my community. And I have to love Jim Bob. It doesn't matter if he has a Trump 2024 flag on his porch. I need to love Jim Bob and I need to be like, we need to be there for each other. And I think that what I've noticed over time, like, especially after, you know, People of color still face a lot of uh oppression and lot of um just really fucked up situations. And what I've been noticing though, and something that really speaks to me as well, is this idea around like expansive solidarity. And I'm noticing many more um kind of well-known speakers talk about it too, of like, you don't have to like someone to love them. And that love is really coming from a much different place. And we should be much more expansive with who we love and who we decide to care about. So that's kind of what I've been thinking a lot about. Cause frankly, like who knows if I don't want to fear monger, but who knows what's going to happen. And, um and if we really think about what is the most sustainable or the most ecologically friendly, is being, it is having a working systems or collaborations that are the closest to you. So whether that's, you know, learning about um like what skills Jim Bob has to offer in terms of like, maybe he's a mechanic, maybe he's an artist, or a musician, and he can bring joy to the community in that way. um But having that close proximity to those to those resources of creativity, um know, craftsmanship or whatever. That's actually kind of going back to this idea of like bio-regionalism and having really strong systems that are close to you so that you don't have to travel far, so that you don't have to rely on like transportation networks or even like electricity networks or whatever it is. And that's something that you can't do until you go and like knock on your neighbor's door and get to know those folks. And it's not even just like directly neighbors, but like. Where is your food coming from within that region? What are the ways in which we can share resources really easily and quickly, um when there's abundance, but also if there was uh something that um caused our current systems to stall out, right? We want to be able to really work with the folks that are closest to Yeah, I'm just nodding along like stars in my eyes. Yes, absolutely. I it's a feature, not a bug of the suburbs that you're in isolation, that you have your little postage-sized stamp and we have the fences around us and they're walls. They really are. mean, my vision is to take down all the fences and turn them into raised beds and long tables. And that's weird. It's not, you know, like that would be something you're like, what are you crazy? Like that sounds insane. And I think that sounds awesome to me. That being said, I don't know the names of the people who live on one side of me. And there are reasons for that. uh You know, you do what you can. Fine. On the other side, you know, I remember them bringing their baby home and I just looked at her the other day like, wow, you are as tall as your mom now. Okay. You know, when I dropped tomato seedlings off on their porch and because again, we sort of live on top of each other, I can see you building raised beds in your backyard and I'm going to drop some of my extra tomato seedlings off on your porch. And I looked out the window just before we started recording and they're in the raised beds and she's got the forks that I write the varieties on because I save all my little plastic forks and she set them in there marking them out. I could cry. mean, sometimes it's just that simple. We just don't knock on each other's doors to borrow a cup of sugar anymore. And that's again, there are reasons for that. But it's so simple and it breaks down a lot of barriers and yeah, I don't have to like you to love you. ah It's so true with our larger sort of neighbor situation right now between our two countries, for example, like em I can be mad about it and still love you, my friends, my family, because we have that connection, because we're connected as people, we have a heart connection. And so I can separate those things out. And I wish that we would apply that to the folks who live across the street from us. It takes time sometimes, you know, or just that, like finding one thing that, one interaction that ends in a smile. A commonality rather than a difference. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because I find, you know, most people actually have a lot more in common than they don't. And it's just getting past that thing that you really don't like about them or a belief. It might not even be an aspect of their character, but it might be a belief that they have or something that they've said or some ugly, rude sign that they have in their yard, which is very repellent. Right. um But I think there's just this, I started noticing this clash in the abolition movement because I was getting really interested in the abolition movement. um you know, I have a post also that's like a zero waste world is basically like, I can't remember how I phrased it. was like zero waste. It's like zero police is also part of a zero waste world or something like that. um And what I was thinking about that is like, When we were talking about abolition, we were talking about how people should not be thrown away. And yet right now in this political, you know, very polarized political environment that we're in, we throw so many people away without a second thought. we don't have a of grace for people and that's fine. We shouldn't be so easy to throw people away. you know, it's interesting how then abolition and zero waste kind of does. collide in that sense of how do we see people as uh human beings deserving of dignity and respect, even if we disagree with them, and find a way to incorporate them into our communities. that is a very, I think that's very much in alignment with abolitionist and zero waste philosophies. And so, you know, why are we, why are we casting people out of our communities so easily and how do we actually find ways to Again, we don't have to like them. We don't even have to really be friends. But that loving aspect is really seeing the humanity in them and seeing that they can and should be a part of our communities and have a role to play. I think that um getting people kind of closer to the center of our experiences, because I think a lot of our political ideas are really at the extremes and the day to day experience of our lives are probably a lot more similar. And let's try to find common ground there. and try to figure out a way to have a more expansive idea of what our community is and what it can look like. Yeah, I mean, ultimately, I think we all just want our families to be, you know, happy and safe and have a future. I all of us want that. And so we should be working toward that rather than against each other. Yeah. So there's another post of yours sort of along this line from a few years ago. And we talked about this off mic. I feel like it's from like five or six years ago now. It's I scrolled back to find to find the date on this one and then didn't write it down. But it's basically you looking out a window and you're asking the question of who benefits and who is burdened when we're making these every day, like quote, eco-friendly or sustainable choices. So can you tell us more about what that means and how that can help guide us, especially when we're stuck in these moments where like the perfect choice isn't available and we do have to choose that, that best worst option. Yeah, it was actually at a policy conference because I've been working in political like spheres for a long time. And Glenn Powell, he uh has a leadership role with an organization called Race Forward. I don't know what his position is now, but at the time, he had shared that quote in a policy conference and was really applying it to how do we make policy in different jurisdictions, whether it's the city, state, or federal level, how do we make policy decisions and using this framework to help us, to kind of help guide us? So, you know, who benefits from this policy change? Who is going to be burdened by it? uh I think often a lot about, you know, the placement of industrial factories. Who benefits from that, right? Well, if you can find cheap land or whatever, um that's is going to benefit the entity that is responsible for that factory um and who is burdened are all of the people who live close by to it. uh A very recent example of that actually, I think it was just yesterday or maybe the day before there was an article about, and it was a video of a journalist going to someone's home in, I believe it's somewhere in Georgia and Amazon. excuse me, I think it's Microsoft actually had built a massive data center right in their town. And probably for tax reasons, Microsoft benefited from building their big ass um data center there. And this family who had lived there for so long suddenly can't like the water pressure in their home was drastically reduced. And then there was weird sediment that was left behind. So your reason to believe that their, that their water supply is now contaminated as well. And that to me was just such a big, you know, example of that. Microsoft as a corporation, they can benefit and in a way, all of us folks who are using the internet constantly or using AI constantly, we're benefiting, but there's real people who live very close to that data center who are suffering and who are burdened by that decision. And, you know, It's hard for us in those big scale things to make, know, we can't really influence that choice anymore. Right. um But I think about it in terms of. um So if we were to kind of scale it back down to our own everyday choices, one of the things that I've been doing recently is um just thinking about our food systems and how I can make a shift that works with our family's budget and time and. kind of the various, you know, privileges that we have. I wanted to start prioritizing shopping, like my first shopping day of the week is going to be at a local farm. I'm going to try to get as many of the basics as I can from them. And then the next place that I shop at is either a locally owned grocery chain or a worker owned co-op grocery chain. you know, Those are big box stores that carry Nestle products and Nabisco products or whatever, and things that I probably wouldn't support generally. But because the store is a worker-owned co-op, I feel that the benefits of that decision are going to the workers. um And I feel much better about that choice. um And in terms of supporting my local farmers like that. choice and that shift brings me so much joy. And I think that's the thing that I have been really thinking about lately is these little changes and shifts that we make can and should be ones that make us feel good in our hearts. know, as much as it's a maybe a mental calculation, it's also a heart calculation, right? Like I feel so good knowing who, you know, grew the produce or raised the beef. um I want to support that family. um And I know that they also support and supply a lot of local restaurants. So there's this whole ecosystem that I get to buy into by making that choice. It's when I think about like who's benefiting in that decision, I feel really good about supporting local families, local workers. um And then, you know, there's, are some burdens that are happening there too, but, because I think the benefits are being outweighed by um the potential burdens, like then I can feel, you know, it's like that. uh best, worst choice that's in front of me. And in some ways, like with a local farm, I'm like, that's just like a best, best choice. I'm feeling really good about that. Yes, I live in Southern Ontario where our premier is determined to pave over every single farm. We're going through it here with, you gave the data center example and we're sort of going through it here too with a bill, it's called bill five that's before the Ontario legislature right now that would create special economic zones where essentially regulation and a digital consultation would just be. eliminated essentially for industry and for quote affordable housing. And like, do we need housing? Of course, but we also need to have farmland and we need to protect the water table. Like this is why Toronto is flooding all the time because we are messing up the water table. Like these things have long range consequences that we are well aware of for short term gain. And for folks who don't know that the issue with the data center and the water is that water is used for cooling the servers that produce things like chat GPT and that sort of thing. And they just suddenly got integrated into everything and it's very difficult to opt out of. again, it's just being more mindful and more thoughtful about what it is that you're using these things for because there are. ramifications beyond I think what we're aware of. But again, we can't hold all these things in our mind at the same time. It's just sort of a pick your poison, like what's your issue and drill really down into that issue. And mine is birds. so I think a lot about suburban naturalization and wildlife and how things like building more town homes that are going to fall apart in 40 years. what about the habitats that we're losing? What about the wildlife that we're losing and the damage to the water table and all of those kinds of things? that's what I'm going to get involved in. And that's where I'm going to put both my ire and my love because I do care so deeply. And I think that that's what causes me to be angry about things. And then instead of just yelling about it, to turn that into action based on on loving those places and those ecosystems that are part of my everyday life. Thanks Before we close, I'm going to put you on the spot for a little segment that I end all of my episodes with called One Small Shift, because I do believe very firmly that individual actions matter and every tiny little thing creates a ripple and the ripples create waves and on and on with that metaphor. But this show is all about making sustainability feel doable. And sometimes it is those tiny changes that really are the watershed moment into shifting everything for someone. What is one small shift that has made a big impact in your life lately, or that could just be a starting point for someone? Okay, so I had a conversation with some friends lately about, you know, the convenience factor of shopping on like an online retailer versus shopping locally. And I think the one shift that I would ask folks to think about is how can you take something that you might have purchased on Amazon and try to... make a shift in how you purchase it. So I get it online shopping, very convenient. Do you have to buy it on Amazon or could you go directly to the retailer? Or could you find a local vendor who also carries that product and you could then make your money, um, serve the local community and local business owners. But I think that that's just You know, everyone wants everything so quickly, so fast. We are pressed for time. So I totally get it. I think that's one shift that someone could make where it just is slowing you down just a little bit. And I think you had said it too, right? Like making your choice a little bit more intentional. So, and it could even be like a super mainstream product. Like I'm in my son's room, right? And it's like Dr. Squatch deodorant. I don't know anything really about Dr. Squatch. uh They're a certified B Corp apparently, but you know, I could have bought this on Amazon, excuse me, on Amazon, but I bought it from like a local store. to me, that's one of those things about just bringing your actions closer and closer to you, as close as you can. And how that is a way to care for your neighbors too, because those local business owners are your neighbors. We want our local economies to thrive. And uh so that's what I would suggest is my one small shift is just try to see if you can um take one or two purchases that you would normally make online and find a new way to make that purchase that either directly goes to the business or is from a local business owner. That is such a way to take that shop small, shop local and really hold it very close to your heart. I that. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. You can say Amazon. I'm going to do a whole episode on how to quit Amazon. I'm like, I don't want the algorithms to follow me. Alas, this is the world we live in. Degrowth, donor economics, what other words can I say instead? Dr. Squatch, said? uh Yeah. And yeah, just last, we can just freestyle here, but like, is there anything you've been reading or listening to or watching lately that is just sort of sticking with you that you can't really stop thinking about or that you would want to recommend? Doesn't have to be sustainability related, just whatever's sort of on your heart. Yeah, I really wish I had my phone near me because there's uh a few content creators out there that I'm really enjoying. I think um something that I'll share too is just the idea of love and the idea of having love drive you has been really big for me lately. And there's two things, I guess, kind of related to that. um So one would be Viet Thanh Nguyen. He is an Asian American author. And he's the one that talked about expansive solidarity. And he has several really amazing books, but he's really great on Instagram, actually. So folks want to follow him there. I think his handle is Viet Thanh Nguyen writer and just really makes a lot of connections around, um you know, when you are advocating for um like Palestinian liberation, you're really advocating for the liberation of everyone because our struggles are all connected. So that's something that I've really been thinking a lot about is how do I have an expansive view of who's in my community and an expansive view of just who I can love and how that can serve both myself and others. ah And then remembering also like to love yourself. think loving yourself is so important because When you have a deep love for yourself, you're more like, feel that I should just make this about me, about how I approach it. But the more that I learned to just love myself, the more content and satisfied I am. And I think the more content and satisfied I am, the less that I really need anything else. Like I don't need approval from society. I don't need approval from my 13 year old son. Like it's just cool. I don't care if my armpits are hairy, like whatever, you know? And so I don't like, so then it's like, kind of, how do, when we talk about all this boycotts and stuff to help support really important movements, I'm like, not boycotting. I don't buy shit. Like I just buy food. I love to eat and I buy like, I've always kind of supported, you know, local bakeries and whatever, because give me that croissant, you know? But I just, I think that came from this. And I think it before it was not really rooted in self-love. was more rooted in like, fuck you, I'm to do whatever I want. Like this more rebellious, um, I have a very like rebellious non-compliant streak in me. But over time as I've been trying to get more in touch with Taoism and Qigong practices from the Chinese side of my heritage. like, you know what? I do love me. And when we start with ourselves, we're able to radiate that out more too. When we learn to accept ourselves, we can hopefully then learn to accept others. um And it helps us, I think, come to more of a grounded place and more of an equilibrium. And sorry, I'm just... going off on a tangent now. But the other thing that I was really thinking about, and it's something I've been sharing with my, with my kids is this idea of like being a helper. And, know, we're often taught like, be grateful for what you have. So like have a gratitude journal and be grateful and blah, blah, blah. And it was Adam, I saw this from Adam Grant's Instagram account. I don't follow him. So it's just the algorithm feeding me stuff. But I know he's a pretty well respected writer. um I think he's a researcher, anyway, he did some research on gratitude versus contribution and he said like, yeah, you should be grateful for what you have, but that's a very passive place to be. it really focuses on what you have. So it's a little bit more of a like a, like a take perspective. mean, I'm not trying to say that we're like selfish or whatever, but it's kind of this like, um, it's just different. And the idea around contribution is like, how did I help today? Or how did I contribute to my community today? And that's kind of more of that giving side of things. How do you give of yourself, in a sustainable way to the people around you? And so I, I'm really taken by that because I think in terms of sustainability too, like we should give more than we take. And it's kind of rooted in these principles too of like, what does a responsible foraging look like? You know, you don't want to take more than what you need. So, I mean, that's, I've, I just haven't been able to let go of that thought in my head either of like, what are some, I can't give every day and I can't necessarily give a lot. But what are the small ways in which I can contribute today, whether it's to help someone in the moment or to help a movement progress em in my community? So those are the things rattling around in my brain lately that I've been really thinking about. And right now this idea of love and community are unfortunately kind of countercultural. And I think if we just talk about them more, I think that's where we're going to start to find some of those commonalities and be able to connect with each other more. And the more that we connect with each other, then we start to see larger systems and our impact on them and all of those wonderful things that like we are an ecosystem and we are part of the ecosystem. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for being here, April. I love you so much. So happy to be here. I love you. And before we let you go, where can folks find you? I am on Instagram at zero waste dork and I do not tick tock. do not do any of those other things. That's where you can find me or you can find me on story graph actually at zero waste dork too. I love seeing what people are reading and I'm not always great about keeping my own reading list updated, but I love book recommendations. So if you're on story graph, you can find me at story graph or on story graph at zero waste dork as well. April has phenomenal book recommendations. I've read everything that April has ever recommended to me. So the book that we mentioned earlier, Don't Add Economics, I'll link that down in the show notes for folks to read because it's so good. It is great. Thank you so much. Awesome. Thank you. I really loved this conversation so much from slowing down and letting go of perfection to thinking more deeply about how community care and love can be climate action in their own right. So I hope this inspires folks to think about what sustainability looks like for them in the context of their own real lives. If something from this episode sparked an idea or helps you feel seen, I'd love to hear about it. You can find me on Instagram at Sarah Robertson Barnes. or send me a message at sustainableinthesuburbs.com. And while you're there, jump on the mailing list where I send out weekly-ish sustainable living tips. I always love hearing from you, so hit that reply button. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have, and live a little greener. Thanks for tuning in to Sustainable in the Suburbs. Every small step adds up, and I'm so glad we're doing this together. If you enjoyed this episode, please make sure to follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. You can find me at sustainableinthesuburbs.com or at Sarah Robertson Barnes on All The Things. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have, and live a little greener.